[WorldCon] WSFS Main Business Meeting #2 Liveblog 6

You can find a copy of the agenda here.

Hugo Study Committee report here.

1003: Meeting comes to order. This is the site selection business meeting.

1004: Final committee called up for report. The WorldCon Runner’s Guide Committee. Mike Willmoth speaking. Report has been submitted. Incremental progress continues. There’s a URL from wsfs.org where you can see what’s been uploaded. They have uploaded the backup before the catastrophic crash from last year and the team is working on updating these. wsf.org/comittees/worldcon-runners-guide is the URL.

1005: No objection to continuing the committee as currently constituted for another year.

1006: Warren Buff as the NASFiC administrator. 192 ballots cast for NASFiC selection. 7 for none of the above, 1 for Christmas in Boston 2020, 1 for Olive Country, 1 for Minneapolis in ’73, 1 for Bristol, and 171 for Utah. As 92 were needed for elect, Utah is the winner.

1008: Currently some issue on who did or didn’t get the slides for the presentation from Utah.

1008: Kate Hatcher, chair of Utah 2019 NASFiC: I will wing it. 150th anniversary of transcontinental railroad and the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 moon landing. July 4-7. This combines Westercon with NASFiC. Layton is north of Salt Lake City. Guests include Susan Chang, Vincent Villafranca (artist guest of honor), Dragon Dronet. Guests of honor: Laurell K. Hamilton, David Weber. Master/mistress of ceremonies, which are Bjo and John Trimble. PR 1 is being handed out; up until now they’ve been doing updates as Westercon. Linda Deneroff as fan guest of honor.

1014: Moving on to WorldCon site selection.

1014: Kevin Standlee asks unanimous consent to thank the tellers and instruct that the ballots be destroyed.

1014: 726 ballots cast. 33 no preference. 8 none of the above. Single votes for Aotearoa, El Fabuloso Bungalo, Grantville WV, Wakanda, Marsopolis, Minneapolis in 74, Slab City. 2 for Olive Country, 2 for Minneapolis in 73, 3 for Peggy Rae’s House, 22 for Christmas in Boston 2020, and the overwhelming majority for New Zealand. As only 347 were needed, New Zealand will have WorldCon in 2020.

1017: Video will be played introducing the WorldCon.

1018: Technical difficulties.

1019: Guests: Mercedes Lackey and Larry K Dixon, Rose Mitchell, George RR Martin, and Greg Broadmore. (Also this video is HILARIOUS.) July 29-August 2 in Wellington, NZ.

1023: George RR Martin will say a few words as toastmaster. He’s thrilled to return to NZ again and tells us about some of the cool stuff around. There’s a lake of sulfuric acid and a volcanic island. (So the writer of this liveblog is very excited, I assure you.)

1025: NZ is given $10,000 from KanSMOFs. WorldCon 75 gives €12,000 in pass along funds to New Zealand.

1029: Note, there’s something air bnb-esque in NZ to be had. (“serviced apartments.”) Kevin Standlee asks for the appointee to the MPC, which will be Daniel Specter.

1031: Unanimous consent to thank the tellers and destroy the ballots.

1031: Anyone from Dublin? James Bacon, chair of 2019 WorldCon. He’s hoping everyone will join them at the closing ceremonies because they’ll have some info then. Otherwise you can find him and others at the Dublin table in the dealer room.

1032: Stephen Cooper head of facilities. Hotels will open on ninth of January 2019. On 8th of December, hotel booking will open early for people with access needs.

1033: Any 2021 bidders who wish to present? Colette F for DC in 2021. They don’t have a presentation, but they want to give basic details. That would be August 25-29 in 2021. Location is the Marriott Wardman Park, which contain all of the function space, 1000 hotel rooms, and 100 suites. Overflow hotel is set up too. This would be a Wednesday-Sunday con.

1035: Question from Sue Francis: will there be overflow days before and after con? Yes, there are shoulder days for at least two, if not three pre- and post-event. Have some exciting plans for people who come to the convention early.

1036: Kim Williams for the 2020 NASFiC. Congrats to NZ! August 20-23 at the Hyatt Regency Columbus Ohio. There is a table in the bid area and they will be happy to answer questions.

1037: Judith Bemis: Who is the chair who had to go home early? Answer – Lisa Garrison is both bid chair and will be convention chair if they win.

1038: Kevin Standlee to remind everyone that in order to do site selection for 2020 NASFiC, that will be done at 2019 NASFiC and you will need to be a supporting or full member of the 2019 NASFiC in order to vote for the 2020 NASFiC bid.

1040: Ben Yalow will be the site selection administrator for the Westercon and NASFiC 2020. All info will be on the webpage.

1041: Dave McCarty, co-chair for Chicago in 2022. They are talking to hotels and have exciting offers. It will likely be on the labor day weekend.

1042: Q – will you participate in pass-along funds? Dave – we have every other time, so I’m advocating for it now. I will beat up anyone who ties to stop us.

1042: Site Selection portion is closed.

1043: Recess until 1100.

1102: And we’re back. We are now taking up D5 Professional and Fan Artist Hugo.

1102: Perianne Lurie makes a motion to refer to committee, not to be reported back until next year. Seconded.

1103: Point of Order from Kevin Standlee. The maker of the motion gets priority unless they yield to the motion to refer. So motion to refer is out of order until then.

1104: Cliff Dunn isn’t quite sure what they will achieve with another year to go around on this, but they can try.

1104: Motion to refer to committee of the whole. (This will put it into a freer form of debate.) Motion is passed. Tim hands the chair over to Jesi.

1107: Time spent here will be taken out of the debate time for D5. Time will be charge equally for both sides. D5, D5.1, and referral to committee are all germane to this.

1107: Joshua Kronengold who was on the committee. What we have is an additional question of direction. We need direction from the business meeting. Currently, professional and fan artist and split with professionals being a group that makes money selling an art, and we define fan artist as “who is not professional.” Instead, we want to privilege fan artist as a very limited set and define who is not fan artist as professional, which privileges fan artist instead. The other option is to strictly define professional and fan, and anyone who doesn’t fit into that definition just can’t compete. Joshua does not like the latter because it’s exclusionary. So do we want to exclude, do we want to privilege fan artist, or do we want to privilege professional artist?

1110: Ben Yalow agrees with most of Joshua’s summary, but one key point not raised is that we are referring to professional art work and fan art work, and saying that you are eligible in fan artist if you create fan work, and professional artist if you create professional art. The key is that we are not talking about a PERSON as being professional or fan, but saying the art is. Thus the same person can create both kinds of art.

1111: Ben Yalow continues that both D5 and D5.1 make clear that we are not classing persons because that is wrong; rather, we are classing the work itself.

1112: Question for Ben from Terry Neill: isn’t there something in the constitution that says you can’t have the same work in more category, but is it okay for a person to be in more than one category as long as it’s for different works? Ben – that is correct.

1113: Elspeth Kovar asks if there are any examples of this kind of thing in the last fifty years. Ben – no, because shortly after, the constitution was amended to say you couldn’t win in both fan and professional, and Ben introduced an amendment to undo that only a few years ago because he felt that decision was wrong. (The “Gone, gone” amendment.)

1115: Kate Secor speaking. Wanted to make sure that people in other media (eg jewelry, sculpture) were eligible. And this also removes the requirement for publication in a semi prozine and fanzine, because the art world has moved on and there are many other ways people publish. They want to expand definition to allow people to be eligible more broadly and not restrict how they are published. Has concerns about D5.1, because it brings in questions of income, which is confusing in some ways and also someone’s income is none of our business.

1118: Question for Kate from Jerry Lohr and it’s not actually a question so never mind.

1119: Kate Secor says there was a sculptor nominated last year, and they were ruled ineligible because they did not meet the strict display guidelines. Not having the explicit language in means the Hugo Administrators will have more discretion.

1120: Joni Dashoff was on the committee because she’s organized a lot of art shows and is on the ASFA board. Publication and display has gone far beyond physical displays and books, and while we’ve updated publications for writing, but not for art. We do not have as clear a wording that includes online as part of “publish” and “public display.” I want to correct that. Some points about artists guests who donate art that I don’t quite understand (sorry).

1122: Dave McCarty – the act of fanart is importantly making the art for use by conventions and fannish things. They have to make it available for fannish things in lieu of compensation.

1124: PRK – the in lieu of compensation thing is not in any of the other fan categories. Why do we require this of fan art, but no other fan things? A clause for giving away rights is not appropriate.

1125: Debate time is almost up. Cannot extend debate time because committee of the whole does not have that power. Seth Breitbart says no time limit was put on the committee of the whole, so we can keep going until we are done. Jesi confers with the parliamentarian.

1127: Parliamentarian says that the time comes from the debate time.

1129: Kevin Standlee commits and act of witchcraft for get us out of these weeds.

1130: The committee of the whole resumes for another 16 minutes.

1131: Warren Buff points out that we postponed to allow artists to speak, so let’s get an artist.

1131: Maurine Starky, Hugo Winner from 2012. The thing that links the fan artist with WorldCon is fanzines. Does not want to see that diminished in any way, but doesn’t want to see that be the end all and be all for any fan artists. Points out the really cool tower in the exhibit hall is an amazing piece of fanart; it was done at someone’s expense and not compensated. Don’t want to say that they can’t be part of this.

1133: Terry Neill sounds like we’re more interested in awarding to a body of art, not a person. Do we want this to be a WSFS-con-fan-linked fan artist, or a celebration of any kind of fandom anywhere? We need to tell the committee which side of the seesaw they should come down on when they take this up again.

1134: Kent Bloom seeing this is much more complex than originally thought, particularly when defining the line between fan and professional art. We are giving awards to artists, not to the artwork. That didn’t work well in the past However, not convinced that there’s a good definition for this yet. Need a better and simpler definition of professional versus fannish art, motion to refer back to the committee with this direction.

1137: Andrew Adams is not sure without a significant input of new people with strong opinions that the committee can come up with something better. Need people who were not already on the committee with new info and new opinions who would be willing to put in the time. Asks for show of hands of people who can do this. Sees enough that he withdraws his objection.

1138: Todd Dashoff says we have to be careful about our terms – professional vs nonprofessional vs fan. If we don’t get guidance as to what is more important from the membership, we’re going to not come up with anything really different.

1139: Kate Secor says the only substantive change she’s really heard is wanting to link fan art back to fanzines, and she will fight that with every fiber of her being. Opposes sending it back to the committee because there hasn’t been really substantive changes suggested from what is currently being presented.

1140: Lou Walcof – suggests that a new committee be created for specifically this issue. That motion is currently out of order, but can be brought up when we’re out of committee of the whole.

1142: Cliff Dunn says that there will be a subcommittee on it from the Hugo Study Committee if this comes back. Repeats that if we don’t get guidance, nothing new is going to come. Also says that with the state of things and necessary nuances, he doesn’t think a simpler definition is possible.

1144: Elspeth Kovar notes that at the moment, very few artists know this is being debated. In the next year, make more artists aware of this and you will be able to get more input.

1144: Petréa Mitchell – referring this back committee will allow the different issues to be separated out for debate.

1145: Maurine Starky – I don’t want fanzines to go away. Computers are a fairy gift. If there’s no electricity, there’s nothing there. Think about that for the future of what will be represented. An artist is known by their work.

1147: The committee of the whole will recommend that the main business meeting refer the motion back to a committee, not specified which.

1148: Tim is back as chair. Question is to refer D5 and D5.1 to refer back to the Hugo Study Committee.

1148: Motion to extend debate fails. We barely get out of a serpentine because Tim remembers it’s a 2/3 majority.

1149: Motion to amend to refer to a new committee rather than the Hugo Study Committee. Which passes.

1150: I have to get a panel so Corina is going to take over. THANK YOU CORINA.

1151: Clarification: both a new committee and the Hugo Study Committee could independently come up with additional advisements.

1153: Serpentine to determine if a new committee is to be formed!

1157: 41 in favor of a new committee.  In favor of sending it to the existing Hugo committee, 30. Motion D.5 to modify Best Professional and Best Fan Artist is sent to a new committee to be reported next year.

1158: Dave McCarty to chair the new committee.

1200: Motion D.8 assigned 5 minutes.  This is the motion to amend the standing rules to have more explicit language regarding deadlines (referring rule 4.4 and amendment 2.9.1 to rule 2.1).

1202: Objection to the movement as financial reports are often late and we do not want the situtation of waiting a while year to get a financial report if it is not ready 30 days ahead of time when current practice may allow it up until the end of the current business meeting.  Kevin Standlee moves to refer the motion to the Nitpicking and Flyspecking committee and to come back next year.

1204: (correction to previous statement)  Motion to end the meeting sine die.  Kevin Standlee delays because they need to take the Worldcon Chair Heads photo.

1205: Terry Neill proposes the secretary and chair contact the LeGuin estate with our respects about the kerfluffle with the naming of the Lodestar award (having been a proposal to rename it to LeGuin).  We do not want the estate to be hurt by the actions of WSFS because we love, adore, and miss her.

1210: Point of order: we cannot do this as after this meeting the secretary and chair will no longer exist.  Chris has perhaps already contacted the LeGuin family but he does not have the authority to speak for WSFS.  Is the motion in order?

1211: Amended to resolve to contact the LeGuin estate regarding any distress caused by the Lodestar award naming process and directs the business meeting staff to send this letter.  Should this actually come from the Mark Protection Committee, Lodestar being a Mark?

1214: Kent Blum does not think that members of the business meeting should be apologizing.  Terry Neill says she did not prefer an apology, but a communication of regret.

1216: Motion to communicate regrets to the LeGuin Estate is a narrow margin.  Division requested!

1218: 23 for, 31 against.  Motion fails.

1219: Kevin Standlee states the Mark Protection Committee meets tomorrow in this room.

1220: Deputee Chair Jessie Lipp presented with a ceremonial crab mallett.

1221: Motion to adjourn sine die, in honor of Milt Stevens and Julian May. Business meeting adjourned until Dublin 2019.  See you all next year!