Saturday (September 1) at 1800: Feminism in Fantasy
Panelists listed in program: Sandy Lindow, Joan D. Vinge, Valerie Estelle Frankel, Sarah Hans, Julia Rios [Note: Sandy Lindow did now show.]
Disclaimer: These are my notes from the panel and my own, later thoughts. I often was unable to attend the entire panel, and also chronically missed panelist introductions. When possible I try to note who said something, but often was unable to. Also, unless something is in double quotes it should be considered a summary and not a direct quotation.
Moderator for the panel did not show up so Julia Rios from Strange Horizons has stepped in.
Valerie Estelle Frankel: the heroine’s journey. Not the same as feminism. The girl travels to fight against the evil queen/symbol of infertility. The young girl heroine doesn’t get a sword; she gets an array of items to fight with most of which are not actually weapons. Talismans of information and perception, often magic apparel. Still descends into death and comes back stronger than before, metaphor for growing up. Normally in heroine’s journey she’s off to rescue a family member rather than great evil. Boys often set out to fight the great evil, for the girls it’s incidental to rescuing the family member. May come from women traditionally being the protector of the family while the men are the warriors. Boys are the warriors and girls are the saviors – see Prince Caspian. They are going on different quests and fight differently. Lucy gets to be more of a hero than Peter… depending upon the definition of hero.
Examples: The Golden Compass, Cupid and Psyche, Seven Swans
Most writers in horror are not women. And generally when male writers have female characters, they are victims. Very traditional American horror trope. There are editors in horror that specifically want female writers writing female characters. So if you’re up against a male writer with a similar story, you have a better chance of getting chosen just because you might be the only woman who has even submitted to that project.
Sarah Hans prefers reading female writers in general because there is more emotion and better rendered relationships between characters during the journey. Little girls will read stories about little boys, but supposedly little boys won’t read stories about little girls. However, with teenaged boys and adult men, it’s shifting so that men are starting to read stories by female writers and with female characters. It’s not emasculating to read things with emotions!
Socialization of culture that boys aren’t supposed to like girl things.
VEF: Women in trousers research. Lots of Victorian women used to dress up in suits and take photographs and do posed scenes. “If you don’t want to be the wimpy girl sidekick you have to identify with the male hero.” What happens when we try to identify with the non-standard. Feels that Katniss got really white-washed in the movie.
SH: part of the reason little boys don’t like reading books about little girls is because books about little girls suck really bad. Which only perpetuates the vicious cycle. If there’s an adventure character that’s female in a story book, they’re almost always either in a fantasy world OR an anthropomorphized animal. In a fantasy world girls get to have agency, but they can’t seem to do it in the real world; not many stories about little girls just being little girls in the real world.
Do female heroes have less value because they use different methods than males?
Joan D Vinge: Depends on the definition. The higher ranked a warrior is in society, the lower the status of the women. In really strong warrior societies, women are almost considered animals that are just for procreation so homosexuality is societally promoted. And then institutionalized pedophilia often. Women’s roles just completely disappear.
VEF: The Ruins of Isis. (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
Julia Rios: Pulp scifi that had women characters normally did the planet of the women hellishly dominating men.
Question as applied to horror-
SH: Heroine is normally super smart or charming or has magical power of awesome sexuality. Can do the same thing with a male character, but for a female character it almost seems like the weakness becomes your strength to write.
Audience Q&A
Audience: Is it true that there are truly enough strong female characters, or are there problems that we see and what are those problems? What would we like to see? (Because some people would say this kind of panel is no longer necessary.)
VEF: Twilight. [Crowd groans.] Katniss is great and kicks butt, but she doesn’t really want to be a girl. The warrior woman is a strong female character, but is cutting herself off from and often despising her femininity. Sends message that the only path to power is to be a tomboy. (Also saw this as the message in the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland.) Hermione is awesome but is technically a sidekick and spends her entire time trying to help Harry succeed in his goal. Problematic as well, because it says no matter how awesome you are you’ll spend your life picking up after Harry Potter.
SH: Would like to see more incidental LGBTQ people. (I’d like to see a dude who enjoys wearing a dresses and it’s not a big deal.) Would like to see more about female friendship and the extremely close bond with a female friend that can eclipse your relationship with a man that’s very passionate even if there is no sex to it. Would like to see a girl and her best friend having adventures together, rather than a woman and her male sidekick. Holmes and Watson relationship between two women.
JR: More female friendships where they aren’t jealous each other about men! Because women don’t really do that! How many of us in our real lives have had this happen with our best female friends?
JDV: [I’m having a really hard time following what Joan is saying. :-/]
SH: Anne McCaffrey’s Pern books were huge for her with the female dragon riders. Jacqueline Carey’s series now. None are really coming of age stories. Using sexuality to overcome obstacles. Shout-out to Laurel K Hamilton. Both series start out with badass and intelligent female heroines but then descend further and further into smut with huge harems of men. But at least most women have a lot of agency and get to make choices.
JDV: Andre Norton – (what is this book title? I missed it.) Ordeal in Otherwhere
What about Buffy?
VEF: Wrote a book about it. It rocks. Many feminist characters other than just Buffy.
JDV: Liked it. Way better than Angel series which had too many male characters.
SH: Loves it, recommends comics. Strong female friendship between Buffy and Willow. Incredible bond between the two.
Audience: With conservative revival in America and elsewhere, is that having an effect? Backlash in fantasy?
JR: YA dystopias abounding with fertility issues where women are being forced to breed. Probably related.
JDV: What is being written always reflects today.
Audience: How does sex factor into feminism in fantasy?
SH: There is a lot you can learn about a character in a sexual encounter – how generous/selfish or skilled/inexperienced.
VEF: Kushiel girls come out of sex winning. GRRM girls have sex and try to influence and lose. Sex as power.
JR: Women having choices and giving enthusiastic consent. Very tired of women getting raped as a plot device.
Audience: Says Buffy is emasculating and anti-man.
JR: Does Buffy emasculate men to begin with?
VEF: Maybe a little, but no story is perfect.
JDV: Men aren’t the main characters so maybe that’s why it seems emasculating. I liked all the guys.
SH: The whole series is supposed to be turning tropes on its head. Buffy doesn’t need a male sidekick she has the most powerful female witch in the world.
Audience guy: But Xander is buffoonish!
JR: He’s one guy. Not all the male characters are like that.
SH: Xander is the heart of the group. He’s supposed to be a clown. And he’s supposed to be someone that Buffy doesn’t want to date.
Audience: What about Firefly. Feels like it’s basically perfect.
SH: Mal is clearly the main character. It’s not 50/50. Buffy has that same problem the other way. You do have to pick a main character at some point.
Bless Julia Rios for making the attempt at moderating. It was kind of a rough panel, viewed from the audience. But also a very interesting one.
And I admit it, when the guy in the audience asked his question about Buffy the Vampire Slayer being emasculating, all I could hear in my head was, “But what about the men?” For goodness sake, we get one series that’s the most awesomesauce ever for the women compared to nearly every other one where the men get to be the hero.
I think the remark I really liked the most was the request for more stories about strong female friendships where the women don’t fight over men. Goodness this, a thousand times yes. I can think of precisely one occasion in my life (in high school) when I had a thing for the same guy one of my friends did. The other girl and I worked it out just fine and remained good friends – because shockingly enough, genuine friendship is more important than boys. (Sorry boys, I know you may not want to hear this.)
I have no idea why that trope gets written so often. Is it because men are supposed to be that important? Romance and marriage is supposed to be a woman’s be-all and end-all? Ugh. I’m not going to say it never happens, but the way it gets presented in books and media you’d think it was rampant.
One thing that did bother me was the remark about the warrior woman, cutting herself off from essential femininity and taking the tomboy path to power. I don’t think that should be presented as the only path to power (I want to see my niece be the hero whether or not she wants to wear pink frilly dresses while doing it) but I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. Admittedly, I’m a bit biased as a life-long tomboy that’s never really been impressed by the idea that there’s something I’m missing out on as a woman because I’m simply not interested in “femininity,” essential or otherwise.
Then again, I don’t necessarily buy into the idea of the existence of “essential femininity” or “essential masculinity” to begin with; I don’t think men and women are actually as different at the level of blood and bone as we like to pretend. We’re all part of that glorious rainbow of humanity that bridges the horizon.
But hey, that’s just me. I suppose you could accuse the warrior woman of trying too hard to be like a man, but I’d ask in return – what if she’s just trying really hard to be herself?